Mumbai Outrage

I wasn't going to comment on the murder of innocents in Bombay as there are hardly any words that need to be said ..... the usual suspects are currently being sought by the Indian Authorities.

However I did post a comment on the Pakistaniat site where a sympathetic article to the victims had been posted. I pointed out that it was believed to be Islamic militants again, and when were they going to acknowledge ..... well here's the comment.

NoPcthoughts said ....

"I think people the whole world over echo your thoughts.

You forgot to mention London, Madrid and Bali (to name but a few) from your litany of woe …… But when oh when, is this religious fuelled madness going to end?

Why can Islam not reform and become tolerant of everyman believing or not believing as their conscience dictates? If not that, then I recall that the Quran says that each mans religion is between him and your god?

Islam has the scope to become a true religion of ‘tolerance and peace’ (as it often proclaims) but to outsiders, the ‘peace’ seems to be only of submission or death.

Attacking ‘kaffirs” or ‘heretics’ or atheists, or secularists etc, is a sin, should never be seen as a passport to some ‘paradise’ … I am afraid that until this sort of ‘kill’ theology is removed from all forms of the faith, these sort of mindless terror attacks inside and outside Pakistan will continue to occur."

This prompted a reply to me .....

Babar says:

Nopcthoughts: Lack of knowledge on your part does not bring the responsibility of reform on islam singularly ( though I think its an absurd idea to reform an ancient religious idea).

Obviously the violence committed by muslims only is of interest to the western mind at the time of history.

Otherwise you could ask the same question to Hindus in india who have killed many many times more innocent muslims ( going by the record of mainstream newspapers). But I am not worried.

Once this phase of history is over, you will forget about the muslim violence or the need of islamic reform.

To which I replied ...

"Babar - We deal with the world as it is, not as it might be, and its impossible to face the current world, without at least acknowledging that the majority, of the many acts of terrorism in the world, are carried out by adherents to, or in the name of religion … and that at least one of those religions seems to particularly feature in these acts.

To justify and say that, its in retaliation to attacks by another religions followers, would simply open the floodgates to others around the globe also carrying out the same violent acts.

It’s the failure to acknowledge this fact, and deal with the consequences that stem from this, that lead to the kinds of attacks that we are currently seeing around the world ….. as for the ‘absurdity of trying to reform an ancient religious idea’ … The Christians ‘Reformation’ took place in Europe around 1,514 yrs after its founding (followed by other less dramatic events over the following centuries), and I note that Islam is around 1,429 yrs old now …

So maybe those Turkish Imans, who want to revise many Islamic texts to ‘reform’ or ‘modernise’ aspects of Islam, are the forerunners of change?

In any event, I suspect that this is not a subject that will just ‘go away’ after ’this time of history’, because there are many whose only aims are to ensure that it doesn’t by using violence."

Babar then followed me to this site, where he posted this reply, but in another subject, so I removed it .... however it was posted on Pakistaniat and here it is .....

Babar says:

Nopcthoughts: I did not justify the acts of killing because someone else is also doing it. You are just putting words in my mouth. In fact, I do not justify them at all. Killing of innocent civilians is completely abhorable.

Leaving aside the arguments if the terrorism is morally better or worse than state killings, the current phenomenon of terrorism by non-state actors is very dangerous in itself. I very strongly believe that Pakistan has to uproot it completely as it takes away the states monopoly of controlling its dealings with other nations and it has no place in a democratic functioning of state.

However, what I did say is that you can not blame Muslims only, for the acts of terrorism. Muslims are no better or worse than other groups and what makes me unhappy is when people single out muslims as if they are some other branch of animal kingdom and preach them about peaceful living. You obviously have no understanding of indian situation.

You think this way because you have been interested in this phenomenon only after 9/11 and only from the perspective of the west.

• Do you know that in year 2002 more than 3000 Muslims were killed in three days at the hands of terrorists in indian state of Gujrat?
• Do you know how many muslims were killed in riots after Babri Masjid?
• Do you know just a year ago a dozens of Pakistanis returning from india were killed in terrorist attacks by hindus?
• Do you know about what happened in the mosques of Malegaoon about a year ago? Did you condemn any of those personally?

Then why do you expect muslims to condemn each act of terrorism on demand?

Going to the Muslim side of violence you must not know how the kashmiri mujahideen had made life hell for kashmiri hindu pandits in 1990’s. But of course that was before 9/11 when the world (western) was a peaceful place.

India has many many more violent problems apart from hindu muslim issue.

My only contention is that one should perhaps try to find solutions for the problem one is facing rather than painting a very large group of people as evil.

I think it would be impossible to discuss the nature and impact of christian reformation here.

But according to my understanding, the peace and harmony in west is because of marginalization of religion from political life and as a source of social organization rather than some “reform” in the religion itself.

Religion, no matter how much reformed, has always great potential of bringing bad to the society when used as a basis for organization of society

One should look for modernization of muslim societies rather than the religion.

........ so although I deleted his comment from the post he attached it to, I have stuck to my principles of freedom of speech and conscience and posted Babar's comments (correcting only the odd spelling mistake as I am guessing that English is not Babar's first language), here.

So my last response, "Tempus Fugit" as the saying goes .... I have other posts to write.

NoPcthoughts says ...

Babar, You got so engrossed in your own arguments, that its you who are now putting 'words into my mouth' - If you check you will see that I was careful to include all religious beliefs in the ideology that feeds terrorism "the majority, of the many acts of terrorism in the world, are carried out by adherents to, or in the name of religion" and I only added that one particular religion was most often involved … and that at least one of those religions seems to particularly feature in these acts."

I never said that you had justified the attacks, I was merely opining that "To justify and say that, its in retaliation to attacks by another religions followers, would simply open the floodgates to others"

You then list a whole list of alleged Hindu atrocities on Muslims, why? if not to use them as exactly some sort of justification for this latest outrage? If there is no possible justification then there is no need to read out lists of 'atrocities'.

Recently, Hindu's attacked thousands of Christians and burnt churches ..... and the same has happened in Pakistan fairly recently but the 'Christian West'" did not cut off aid to either Pakistan or India despite these attacks ...... what does that say to you?

Finally, we probably essentially agree over many of the causes, and I totally agree with your last comment

"....according to my understanding, the peace and harmony in west is because of marginalization of religion from political life and as a source of social organization rather than some “reform” in the religion itself.

Religion, no matter how much reformed, has always great potential of bringing bad to the society when used as a basis for organization of society One should look for modernization of muslim societies rather than the religion."

So we are not that far apart, but as I have noted, its this blindness as to the underlying cause that seperates many muslims from the rest of the world. Islamists would tell you that Islam can't be marginalized from the state as they are one and the same.

You only have to look at the other arguments going on in the comments on Pakistaniat, to see a closet defence of the attacks being formed, as well as our discussion being replicated between other sets of posters.

Sadly, but maybe unsurprisingly, there are some news reports suggesting that some of these murderers could be from the UK (Bradford, Leeds or London) ...... nothing new there then, if its proved to be true.